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	<title>Comments on: The Witnesses to the Witnesses</title>
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	<description>Unraveling the Mysteries of Mortal Resurrection</description>
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		<title>By: How to Live Forever &#187; What&#8217;s New for April, 2009</title>
		<link>http://www.mortalresurrection.com/2009/01/02/110/comment-page-1/#comment-459</link>
		<dc:creator>How to Live Forever &#187; What&#8217;s New for April, 2009</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Apr 2009 19:12:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>[...] New for April, 2009The Testimony of Joseph ben MathiasWhat&#8217;s NewThe Witnesses to the WitnessesClement of RomePrologue: I Want To [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] New for April, 2009The Testimony of Joseph ben MathiasWhat&#8217;s NewThe Witnesses to the WitnessesClement of RomePrologue: I Want To [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.mortalresurrection.com/2009/01/02/110/comment-page-1/#comment-218</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 22:19:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mortalresurrection.com/?p=110#comment-218</guid>
		<description>I still hold out hope that the resurrection of Christ is an event that Catholics and Protestants can agree on. I am a scientist, not a theologian. My concern has been that the secular world dismisses the evidence for the resurrection out of hand, without examination, due to the preconceived notion that such an occurrence is &#039;scientifically impossible&#039;. Much of the Christian world, on the other hand, accepts the resurrection as an article of faith, without attempting to evaluate the evidence. In order to bridge this gap, I have spent over four years analyzing all of the pertinent historical evidence, resulting in the manuscript &lt;em&gt;How to Live Forever&lt;/em&gt; . I believe that the book is an honest treatment of all the evidence, whether of Roman, Greek, Jewish, Christian, or other origin. My preconceived notion was that the evidence would be insufficient to arrive at a conclusion; but I believe that I would have been true to the data whether it indicated that the resurrection did occur, or that the resurrection did not occur, or that the data was insufficient to reach a valid conclusion. (I would not want to base my life upon a lie!) I was personally surprised by the overwhelming strength of the evidence in favor of the resurrection. Now the manuscript is complete, and I am seeking a publisher.

I believe the book will attract adherents to Christianity from the secular masses who are now largely convinced that Christianity has somehow been discredited by science. Once a person accepts the reality of the resurrection, the Deity of Christ is the logical conclusion. From there, acceptance of the virgin birth, infallibility of Scripture, and other church doctrines are relatively small steps. This, I believe to be my contribution. Advocacy of my personal theological views would only detract from this message. And I hope to avoid such distraction at all cost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I still hold out hope that the resurrection of Christ is an event that Catholics and Protestants can agree on. I am a scientist, not a theologian. My concern has been that the secular world dismisses the evidence for the resurrection out of hand, without examination, due to the preconceived notion that such an occurrence is &#8216;scientifically impossible&#8217;. Much of the Christian world, on the other hand, accepts the resurrection as an article of faith, without attempting to evaluate the evidence. In order to bridge this gap, I have spent over four years analyzing all of the pertinent historical evidence, resulting in the manuscript <em>How to Live Forever</em> . I believe that the book is an honest treatment of all the evidence, whether of Roman, Greek, Jewish, Christian, or other origin. My preconceived notion was that the evidence would be insufficient to arrive at a conclusion; but I believe that I would have been true to the data whether it indicated that the resurrection did occur, or that the resurrection did not occur, or that the data was insufficient to reach a valid conclusion. (I would not want to base my life upon a lie!) I was personally surprised by the overwhelming strength of the evidence in favor of the resurrection. Now the manuscript is complete, and I am seeking a publisher.</p>
<p>I believe the book will attract adherents to Christianity from the secular masses who are now largely convinced that Christianity has somehow been discredited by science. Once a person accepts the reality of the resurrection, the Deity of Christ is the logical conclusion. From there, acceptance of the virgin birth, infallibility of Scripture, and other church doctrines are relatively small steps. This, I believe to be my contribution. Advocacy of my personal theological views would only detract from this message. And I hope to avoid such distraction at all cost.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tap</title>
		<link>http://www.mortalresurrection.com/2009/01/02/110/comment-page-1/#comment-216</link>
		<dc:creator>Tap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 19:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mortalresurrection.com/?p=110#comment-216</guid>
		<description>Part of acknowledging the resurrection, is to recognize it fully, and not just as a physical, historically true event, which it certainly is. But a physical event with real meaning, i mean beyond a miraculous resurrection, it is an invitation to partake of the Divine nature while here on earth. Which invitation was extended by Christ and subsequently rejected by some of his disciples in John 6:48-70 (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john 6:48-70;&amp;version=31;) [my apologies how do you hyperlink a text without having to show the whole url?]

This after he explained in the preceeding verses that the manner from heaven they Jews ate, was but a sign of the greater event which is now practiced (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%206:30-47;&amp;version=31;)

This is not an effort to chastise you. Your love for God is evident from your works. But as is always the Case, when the demon of doubt sees you advancing degree by degree to a greater knowledge of Christ,and sees that he cannot use reason to overcome you as regards something as &#039;implausible&#039; as the resurrection. He reports back, and thenceforth the demon of Pride is sent out. (in its/their capacity/power of suggestion). What it does is find ways to fetter you, that you might not want to &quot;convert&quot; and partake of Christ. 

First, depending of what you think of Catholic/Orthodox view of the Eucharist, he tries to tie it to pagan rituals as best he can, if that doesnt&#039; work he suggests an exclusively non-literal meaning to the words in John 6. [if you&#039;ve studied these &quot;witnesses&quot; that you called the Church fathers you will see that bar none, they held literal meaning, i mean the all held that Christ&#039;s physical body and blood were present once the &quot;words of consecration&quot; were said.]

Second, he tries, to puff you up by things that seem &quot;abhorrent&quot; to grown-ups. What i mean is the act of confessing your most intimate sins to a &#039;man&#039;. &quot;how can you join a Church that does such a things?&quot; He asks, by way of suggestion. &quot;Is this not too embarrassing?&quot;  Hereby exhorting you against the very Child-like humility, that Christ proclaimed we needed to enter into the kingdom of heaven [Matt 18:3-4 ( http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2018:3-4;&amp;version=31; )

I hope the above words sound to you as an encouragement, to seek and participate in the greater truths of the resurrection. I&#039;ve been wanting to create my own blog to write on subjects similar to yours but with a Catholic perspective. I suspect it takes a lot of time though. 

God bless.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of acknowledging the resurrection, is to recognize it fully, and not just as a physical, historically true event, which it certainly is. But a physical event with real meaning, i mean beyond a miraculous resurrection, it is an invitation to partake of the Divine nature while here on earth. Which invitation was extended by Christ and subsequently rejected by some of his disciples in John 6:48-70 (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john" rel="nofollow">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john</a> 6:48-70;&amp;version=31;) [my apologies how do you hyperlink a text without having to show the whole url?]</p>
<p>This after he explained in the preceeding verses that the manner from heaven they Jews ate, was but a sign of the greater event which is now practiced (<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%206:30-47;&amp;version=31" rel="nofollow">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%206:30-47;&amp;version=31</a>;)</p>
<p>This is not an effort to chastise you. Your love for God is evident from your works. But as is always the Case, when the demon of doubt sees you advancing degree by degree to a greater knowledge of Christ,and sees that he cannot use reason to overcome you as regards something as &#8216;implausible&#8217; as the resurrection. He reports back, and thenceforth the demon of Pride is sent out. (in its/their capacity/power of suggestion). What it does is find ways to fetter you, that you might not want to &#8220;convert&#8221; and partake of Christ. </p>
<p>First, depending of what you think of Catholic/Orthodox view of the Eucharist, he tries to tie it to pagan rituals as best he can, if that doesnt&#8217; work he suggests an exclusively non-literal meaning to the words in John 6. [if you've studied these "witnesses" that you called the Church fathers you will see that bar none, they held literal meaning, i mean the all held that Christ's physical body and blood were present once the "words of consecration" were said.]</p>
<p>Second, he tries, to puff you up by things that seem &#8220;abhorrent&#8221; to grown-ups. What i mean is the act of confessing your most intimate sins to a &#8216;man&#8217;. &#8220;how can you join a Church that does such a things?&#8221; He asks, by way of suggestion. &#8220;Is this not too embarrassing?&#8221;  Hereby exhorting you against the very Child-like humility, that Christ proclaimed we needed to enter into the kingdom of heaven [Matt 18:3-4 ( <a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2018:3-4;&amp;version=31" rel="nofollow">http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matt%2018:3-4;&amp;version=31</a>; )</p>
<p>I hope the above words sound to you as an encouragement, to seek and participate in the greater truths of the resurrection. I&#8217;ve been wanting to create my own blog to write on subjects similar to yours but with a Catholic perspective. I suspect it takes a lot of time though. </p>
<p>God bless.</p>
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		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.mortalresurrection.com/2009/01/02/110/comment-page-1/#comment-214</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 16:55:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mortalresurrection.com/?p=110#comment-214</guid>
		<description>I appreciate your concern and your position. Indeed , I am honored that you would dedicate such effort toward correcting me.

I have often been struck by the propensity of man to achieve greatness in one area of life, and to fall utterly short of God&#039;s grace in another. Thus we find Elijah the Prophet running in fear from Jezebel in the very next chapter after calling down fire from heaven in the name of YHWH. Thus do we see St. Papias, St. Justin, and St. Irenaeus embracing the doctrine of chiliaism. Thus Origen, whose works so benefited the church, was later accused of the heresy which bears his name. And Tertullian, after penning so many brilliant treatises defending Christianity and exposing the errors of various heresies (e.g. the five books against Marcion), fell into the heresy of Montanism in his latter life. 

Each of these men had moments of profound insight or inspiration, and each made contributions to the current theology of the church. And yet each fell into what most of us today would call error. I have great sympathy for the failings of these men who first worked out the systematic theology of the church. Had they not broached their opinions, and tried to explain questions as yet unexplained (in their time), we would not have the answers to these questions today. Somebody had to open the discussions on each of these issues, and in so doing, take the risk of failure.

I am not and have never claimed to be a Theologian. And the purpose of this site is not to resolve the differences between churches formed in the Reformation and the Catholic Church. The purpose of this site is to demonstrate to all the reality of the resurrection of Christ as an historical event. We could argue over whether the doctrine of chiliaism was somehow supported by Apostolic Succession, endorsed as it was by many of the greatest writers of the second century church (I have no chiliaistic tendencies); but the answer is subjective, and arguments could be made for either view. Such are the arguments for the primacy of the Roman Church. I believe that the Reformation has strengthened the Roman Church, forcing a reexamination of the values and doctrines rejected by the reformers; thus allowing the Church to prune away errors and excesses, while reaffirming the pure doctrine of Christ. But my views on this matter are merely a distraction from the truth which is the real issue.

Views espoused by various church leaders concerning the more esoteric aspects of Theology will always be open to discussion and interpretation; and in most cases divergent positions can be supported from the writings of the church fathers. BUT THE RESURRECTION IS A MATERIAL FACT! Either Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead, an actual historical event, in no way subject to interpretation; or He did not rise, but remained in His tomb after crucifixion. If He rose, then He has proven His Deity, His claim to be the Anointed One of God, and all of His teachings concerning the relationship of man to God are affirmed; thus creating the foundation for the Christian church. If He rose not, then the Christian Church is false, based upon lies or delusion.

Here the testimony transmitted by Apostolic Succession is crucial. And on this point the testimony is in no way subjective. There are no shades of grey in the resurrection; a man cannot &#039;sort of&#039; rise from the dead, or rise according to a certain viewpoint. If the witnesses to Christ&#039;s resurrection each taught their followers that this miracle occurred, (and these teachings existed in every church founded by Christ&#039;s Apostles, whether Alexandria in Egypt, Antioch in Syria, the various cities of Asia Minor, Rome in Italy, or Lyons in Gaul); then we have universal corroboration of the testimony of the 500+ witnesses to this world-changing, miraculous event. Whether a man ever accepts Christ or not, he needs to be exposed to the certainty of the resurrection as an actual phenomenon, an actual occurrence whose cause is inexplicable according to the knowledge of man. So armed, each person may make an informed decision as to the merits of following the risen Christ.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I appreciate your concern and your position. Indeed , I am honored that you would dedicate such effort toward correcting me.</p>
<p>I have often been struck by the propensity of man to achieve greatness in one area of life, and to fall utterly short of God&#8217;s grace in another. Thus we find Elijah the Prophet running in fear from Jezebel in the very next chapter after calling down fire from heaven in the name of YHWH. Thus do we see St. Papias, St. Justin, and St. Irenaeus embracing the doctrine of chiliaism. Thus Origen, whose works so benefited the church, was later accused of the heresy which bears his name. And Tertullian, after penning so many brilliant treatises defending Christianity and exposing the errors of various heresies (e.g. the five books against Marcion), fell into the heresy of Montanism in his latter life. </p>
<p>Each of these men had moments of profound insight or inspiration, and each made contributions to the current theology of the church. And yet each fell into what most of us today would call error. I have great sympathy for the failings of these men who first worked out the systematic theology of the church. Had they not broached their opinions, and tried to explain questions as yet unexplained (in their time), we would not have the answers to these questions today. Somebody had to open the discussions on each of these issues, and in so doing, take the risk of failure.</p>
<p>I am not and have never claimed to be a Theologian. And the purpose of this site is not to resolve the differences between churches formed in the Reformation and the Catholic Church. The purpose of this site is to demonstrate to all the reality of the resurrection of Christ as an historical event. We could argue over whether the doctrine of chiliaism was somehow supported by Apostolic Succession, endorsed as it was by many of the greatest writers of the second century church (I have no chiliaistic tendencies); but the answer is subjective, and arguments could be made for either view. Such are the arguments for the primacy of the Roman Church. I believe that the Reformation has strengthened the Roman Church, forcing a reexamination of the values and doctrines rejected by the reformers; thus allowing the Church to prune away errors and excesses, while reaffirming the pure doctrine of Christ. But my views on this matter are merely a distraction from the truth which is the real issue.</p>
<p>Views espoused by various church leaders concerning the more esoteric aspects of Theology will always be open to discussion and interpretation; and in most cases divergent positions can be supported from the writings of the church fathers. BUT THE RESURRECTION IS A MATERIAL FACT! Either Jesus of Nazareth rose from the dead, an actual historical event, in no way subject to interpretation; or He did not rise, but remained in His tomb after crucifixion. If He rose, then He has proven His Deity, His claim to be the Anointed One of God, and all of His teachings concerning the relationship of man to God are affirmed; thus creating the foundation for the Christian church. If He rose not, then the Christian Church is false, based upon lies or delusion.</p>
<p>Here the testimony transmitted by Apostolic Succession is crucial. And on this point the testimony is in no way subjective. There are no shades of grey in the resurrection; a man cannot &#8216;sort of&#8217; rise from the dead, or rise according to a certain viewpoint. If the witnesses to Christ&#8217;s resurrection each taught their followers that this miracle occurred, (and these teachings existed in every church founded by Christ&#8217;s Apostles, whether Alexandria in Egypt, Antioch in Syria, the various cities of Asia Minor, Rome in Italy, or Lyons in Gaul); then we have universal corroboration of the testimony of the 500+ witnesses to this world-changing, miraculous event. Whether a man ever accepts Christ or not, he needs to be exposed to the certainty of the resurrection as an actual phenomenon, an actual occurrence whose cause is inexplicable according to the knowledge of man. So armed, each person may make an informed decision as to the merits of following the risen Christ.</p>
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		<title>By: Tap</title>
		<link>http://www.mortalresurrection.com/2009/01/02/110/comment-page-1/#comment-210</link>
		<dc:creator>Tap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 02:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mortalresurrection.com/?p=110#comment-210</guid>
		<description>Well, your response would be valid if i was telling you to join the Catholic church. I was merely exhorting to leave your protestant denom. If you join the Orthodox Church, i will have little qualms with it. At least they have Apostolice succession, so their Orders are valid. 

When you can literarily eat the Flesh and Blood of Christ (john 6) In either Church, Disagreement about the reach or authority of the Bishop of Rome is not excuse to stay in the protestant denom. Given as St. Athanasius put it: &quot;he had not received his ordination according to ecclesiastical rule, nor had been called to be a Bishop by apostolical tradition&quot; 
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.xx.ii.ii.html

God Bless</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, your response would be valid if i was telling you to join the Catholic church. I was merely exhorting to leave your protestant denom. If you join the Orthodox Church, i will have little qualms with it. At least they have Apostolice succession, so their Orders are valid. </p>
<p>When you can literarily eat the Flesh and Blood of Christ (john 6) In either Church, Disagreement about the reach or authority of the Bishop of Rome is not excuse to stay in the protestant denom. Given as St. Athanasius put it: &#8220;he had not received his ordination according to ecclesiastical rule, nor had been called to be a Bishop by apostolical tradition&#8221;<br />
<a href="http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.xx.ii.ii.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf204.xx.ii.ii.html</a></p>
<p>God Bless</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: admin</title>
		<link>http://www.mortalresurrection.com/2009/01/02/110/comment-page-1/#comment-209</link>
		<dc:creator>admin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Mar 2009 00:24:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mortalresurrection.com/?p=110#comment-209</guid>
		<description>The posts are in the reverse order of creation, with the exception of the prologue, which I thought should precede the others.

You are correct in your assertion that other fathers strongly endorsed the idea that the proper order of the church was passed from the Apostles to the church through the Apostles&#039; successors. Examples of this include: Clement of Rome, &lt;em&gt;First Epistle to the Corinthians&lt;/em&gt; XLII &amp; XLIV; Ignatius, &lt;em&gt;Ephesians &lt;/em&gt;XII; &lt;em&gt;Magnesians&lt;/em&gt; XIII ; &lt;em&gt;Trallians &lt;/em&gt;VII; Polycarp, &lt;em&gt;Epistle to the Philippians&lt;/em&gt; III &amp; VI; Quadratus, &lt;em&gt;Apology to Hadrian&lt;/em&gt; as preserved in Eusebius, &lt;em&gt;Eccl. Hist&lt;/em&gt; . IV, iii; Polycrates, &lt;em&gt;Epistle to Victor&lt;/em&gt; as preserved in Eusebius, &lt;em&gt;Eccl. Hist&lt;/em&gt;. V, xxiv; Clement of Alexandria, &lt;em&gt;Stromata&lt;/em&gt; I, i. Tertullian dwells on this concept at length. 

However, even within the Catholic Church there have been disagreements concerning exactly what was ordained as church doctrine by the Apostles, and what was merely the personal practice of an Apostle. The paschal controversy of the second century AD is a prime example of disagreement in practice concerning traditions derived originally from Apostles. The custom of the Asiatic churches, based upon the practice of the beloved disciple during his tenure in Ephesus, was to celebrate Easter on 14 Nisan, according to the Jewish calender, regardless of which day of the week. The Roman Church, however, based upon the practices they received from the Apostles Peter and Paul, celebrated Easter only on the Lord&#039;s day, or Sunday, the day of Christ&#039;s resurrection. Obviously, the teachings of St. John, St. Peter, and St. Paul are all orthodox in every regard. And yet they disagreed on the details of this most important Christian Holy Day.

After discussion of excommunication under Bishop Victor of Rome, common sense prevailed and each side agreed to respect the Apostolic traditions of the other, (even Polycarp of Smyrna followed the Eastern custom!) I think the point is that either custom falls within the pale of the church.  If this work leads people to a personal commitment to the truth of the Apostle&#039;s Creed, then I am more than satisfied.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The posts are in the reverse order of creation, with the exception of the prologue, which I thought should precede the others.</p>
<p>You are correct in your assertion that other fathers strongly endorsed the idea that the proper order of the church was passed from the Apostles to the church through the Apostles&#8217; successors. Examples of this include: Clement of Rome, <em>First Epistle to the Corinthians</em> XLII &amp; XLIV; Ignatius, <em>Ephesians </em>XII; <em>Magnesians</em> XIII ; <em>Trallians </em>VII; Polycarp, <em>Epistle to the Philippians</em> III &amp; VI; Quadratus, <em>Apology to Hadrian</em> as preserved in Eusebius, <em>Eccl. Hist</em> . IV, iii; Polycrates, <em>Epistle to Victor</em> as preserved in Eusebius, <em>Eccl. Hist</em>. V, xxiv; Clement of Alexandria, <em>Stromata</em> I, i. Tertullian dwells on this concept at length. </p>
<p>However, even within the Catholic Church there have been disagreements concerning exactly what was ordained as church doctrine by the Apostles, and what was merely the personal practice of an Apostle. The paschal controversy of the second century AD is a prime example of disagreement in practice concerning traditions derived originally from Apostles. The custom of the Asiatic churches, based upon the practice of the beloved disciple during his tenure in Ephesus, was to celebrate Easter on 14 Nisan, according to the Jewish calender, regardless of which day of the week. The Roman Church, however, based upon the practices they received from the Apostles Peter and Paul, celebrated Easter only on the Lord&#8217;s day, or Sunday, the day of Christ&#8217;s resurrection. Obviously, the teachings of St. John, St. Peter, and St. Paul are all orthodox in every regard. And yet they disagreed on the details of this most important Christian Holy Day.</p>
<p>After discussion of excommunication under Bishop Victor of Rome, common sense prevailed and each side agreed to respect the Apostolic traditions of the other, (even Polycarp of Smyrna followed the Eastern custom!) I think the point is that either custom falls within the pale of the church.  If this work leads people to a personal commitment to the truth of the Apostle&#8217;s Creed, then I am more than satisfied.</p>
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		<title>By: Tap</title>
		<link>http://www.mortalresurrection.com/2009/01/02/110/comment-page-1/#comment-207</link>
		<dc:creator>Tap</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Mar 2009 21:12:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.mortalresurrection.com/?p=110#comment-207</guid>
		<description>&quot;the Apostles entrusted their mission to the men who had diligently and faithfully assisted them in their work&quot;

Given Eusebius&#039; and nearly all the Church fathers&#039; testimony as regards apostolic sucession, i wonder how long you will tarry in your protestant denomination.   btw i saw your post in a catholic blog and followed the link you posted there (can&#039;t remember which blog it was. Good work. Bt the way, not sure if you&#039;ve noticed but it looks like you blog is not arranged New-old for some reason, the old articles are first. Maybe you wanted it that way?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;the Apostles entrusted their mission to the men who had diligently and faithfully assisted them in their work&#8221;</p>
<p>Given Eusebius&#8217; and nearly all the Church fathers&#8217; testimony as regards apostolic sucession, i wonder how long you will tarry in your protestant denomination.   btw i saw your post in a catholic blog and followed the link you posted there (can&#8217;t remember which blog it was. Good work. Bt the way, not sure if you&#8217;ve noticed but it looks like you blog is not arranged New-old for some reason, the old articles are first. Maybe you wanted it that way?</p>
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